Mr. M

I just read a forum based in Singapore, discussing about the purchase of a GS300 over a BMW 523i, an A6 and a E200. The discussion has expanded to become a German vs. Japanese debate, and it is very interesting what some people wrote. Some interesting points to note:

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The engineering of Japanese cars now meets or exceeds the Germans in reliability and sophistication often. Just take the new IS250 engine and compare it with the BMW 325 engine. The IS250 engine has dual fuel supply - direct and indirect fuel injection, with infinitely variable timing on both intakes and exhaust, with better fuel consumption and more power than the BMW 2.5L 6 in line. The BMW boasts dual VANOS and Valvetronic and better materials, but worse fuel consumption and down in power. Honda's new electronic differential for the Acura TL is so sophisticated that it approaches few years' ago Prodrive active differentials in sophistication. BMW reserves the M-Differential merely for the M3-series, and for 4WD differentials it relies on outsourced suppliers (Haldex?). And the Fujitsu-TEN/Denso Navigation on the newer Lexus systems are regarded as way superior to the VDO-Dayton (Siemens) systems used in many German cars. Regarding the suspension and the way the cars are `made' and other engineering questions, Japanese car companies have had to make their own technologies in house with consulting experience from 3rd parties, while the Germans have increasingly turned to Robert Bosch for solutions, almost totally forgoing basic R&D on their vehicles. Hybrid technology for the indpendent Japanese car manufacturers like Honda and Toyota (power return, power storage, in wheel motors) is so far ahead of the Germans that the Germans and Americans are now scrambling to catch up, and in the USA you can see that Hybrid technology is the BOMB and everybody is buying the new Hybrid cars that the US companies are so worried but the Germans are complacent still, but waking up now. All the time they have given us useless solutions like a pure Hydrogen engine (BMW 750 modify to accept hydrogen fuel) without telling us that a pure hydrogen economy is about 10 years away. So this merely outlines my objection to the thinking that German cars have better engineering than the Japanese. Don't look at the country, look at the facts please.

One last thing - YOU ARE PERFECTLY CORRECT, GERMAN ENGINEERING IS NOT CHEAP. After visiting several car factories and speaking at length to the factory people, and after a few loss making flirtations with German technology companies in a personal and corporate capacity, I understand a little now, perhaps too little, but here is my understanding... if not wrong:

1) German law makes it almost impossible to fire useless employees - employee compensation is large.
2) German law makes it almost to hire new employees because they can't be easily fired.
3) German law is community centric, at the expense of the corporations.
4) Germany has a LOT of holidays
5) Germany has the one of the shortest working hours in the world
6) German engineers get paid a lot for what they do compared to any other country in the world bar USA.

So, German technology is NOT CHEAP, perhaps THE MOST EXPENSIVE TECHNOLOGY IN THE WORLD, but for the wrong reasons. They are expensive because of their system, not the quality or quantum of their technology.

To be honest, at the back of my mind, the more I visit them, the more I have severe objections at the back of my mind every time I consider German cars - because when I pay to make BMW more profitable, I don't mind as much as paying so much for the welfare coffers of the German worker. That, sir, I cannot stand, because I'm not even paying to make my choice of German manufacturer richer and therefore more able to invest in better and better technology, but I'm paying the price to make the German worker's welfare coffers bigger. This does not benefit me at all.

Do you agree what is said about German cars, and which do you prefer - German or Japanese? (I think it is obvious but after reading these, I'm a little more doubtful of what I'm loving)

Tycoon

German engineering for me. I do not disrespect Japanese, in fact i , but i should be born in some other world, under some other name to prefere Japanese over German.

MikeJ

German cars, lah.
Let's face it, it's not about the efficiency of the factories or the reliability or anything like that - it's about how the car makes you feel. I've yet to drive a Japanese car that would give me the same feeling of quality and consideration for the needs of the user.

Merc1

They need to come to the U.S. where the IS250 gets it lugnuts handed to it by the 325i which is has more hp and is much faster and beats the crap out of the IS250 in every single comparo so far. Oh yeah BMW uses a detuned 3.0L in the U.S. market "325i" so they'll cry foul I guess. Either way consumers don't really care long as the car performs as the 325i does and underpowered IS250 doesn't.

M

Imhotep Evil

1. I'm sorry but last time I've checked a review of IS 250 vs. 325, the bimmer
had better fuel economy and more HP
check this:

325i / IS250

218hp / 208hp
Consumption 12.1 l/6,2 l/8,4 l _____ 13.5 l/7,7 l/9,8 l
Brakes cold/warm from 100 km/h 37.2/36.8 m _____ 37.0/37.4 m
Acceleration 0-50/0-100 km/h 2.7/7.3 ______ s 3,1/8,1

2. Also the IS is both less sporty/poorer driving dynamics and more cramped.
3. The 330i bested the IS 350 on the track despite loosing in the straith line.
4. The germans actually have 4 independent auto makers, as opposed just 2
for the japanese.
5. Apart from the Prius, nothing else really sells.
6. This thing about germans really outsorcing all/most their R&D to Bosch (only) is just plain BS.
7. The profit margins of Porsche and BMW brand cars are the biggest in the world and are the main reason Lexus, Acura and Co. exist. They are the
benchmarks in their segment.
8. And even if these german cars are expensive, they sell. BMW, Porsche nad Audi are flying really high.
9. Things in Germany are changing, DC AG, VW AG, GM-Opel are restructuring
adapting to new realities.

Just_me

I read several comparisons between 325i and IS250. All reviews and I mean all reviews showed that 325i have better fuel consumption than IS250.

Andaluz

With the notable exeception of the Acura and Infiniti cars, which sadly are not sold in Europe. Subaru Legacy, Impreza, a few Nissans, Honda NSX, Mitsubishi EVO and Mazdas.

I ALWAYS will stick with the German alternatives over the Japanese.

German cars are often more passionate than the Japanese. And the best thing about the Germans, is that unlike the Japanese; The Germans make it happen and don't copy and try to sell it for a cheaper price.

Lexus GS430: 4.3 V8 32V 280 Bhp and 308 Ib/ft of torque.
0 to 60 Mph in 6 seconds.

That's not very efficient, is it?
__________________

Audi A6: 4.2 V8 40V - 330 Bhp and 310 Ib/ft of Torque.
0 to 60 Mph in 5.7 seconds.

I will take the Audi.

Merc1

Yeah all that and more.

When the Japanese can design a car that actually looks like something (better than just looking "ok") then let me know. Most of their designs are just plain ugly, bland or wierd.

They certainly don't drive like German cars and Germans know a thing or two about safety also.

German car for my next purchase no doubt!

M

The Artist

lol germancarzone.. i dont think we will have many jap votes here..
but one thing is true.. and that is..
the japs take and learn alot from the germans..
the germans should also learn one or 2 about effectivity and durability from the japs..

Snake Vargas

Hey, picking the GS430's 4.3L V8 for comment is like (a few months ago) picking on MB's old 5.0L 225kW V8 (and maybe 460Nm or whatever) and holding it up as the paragon of German engineering - it ain't necessarily so. The GS300's 3.0 V6 is a much better example, compared to its cohort; with 183kW and 310Nm. Any N/A engine that can make more than 100Nm/litre is a decent engine, IMO. I don't really care that much for power figures.

Um, does Subaru count as independant? A small portion of shares are owned by Toyota. Toyota is the best performing car maker at the moment. Honda is doing well enough.

Hey, if you want to compare the US-market 3.0L "325i" with the IS250, why stop there? Would someone cry foul if they went and compared it to the IS350, with 225kW/306hp? Er, and don't worry, some people value things other than track performance in a car. It's not the be-all and end-all of the superiority of a car, not even amongst the people on this forum.

I'm sure that, even in the US, many owners of Honda Accords and Toyota Camrys would tell you that their cars really, really do sell. If you mean Europe, I wouldn't really know, but Camrys do well over here, too. The medium car sector is owned by Japan - Mazda 6, Liberty/Legacy and Accord Euro.

So, am I a big fan of Japanese cars? Not really. I just hate to hear injustice poured out on them.

I like German cars because of a certain thoroughness to their design and their consideration for the user's aesthetic in a way that Japanese cars don't quite. I often find that Japanese cars are built with ruthless efficiency, but you miss out on some small features like air conditioning air flow adjustment for each vent, illuminated door courtesy lights (vs. reflectors, though the Golf V disappointed me in that regard), and air vents for the rear passengers in the back of the centre console/tunnel. Their interior design is also generally well considered, with a certain pride in the overall design, but not necessarily more ergonomically sound.

It's those little things, not performance as such, that make German cars for car enthusiasts, IMO.