*Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)! - Page 10

Tycoon · 05-27-2007, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt

Can't say i agree with this. An abominable ride----seems a bit dramatic, dont you think? Part of what makes the three series chassis the best in its class is its ability to cope with undulations while remaining true to its line. According to automobile mag-the 3er won the 2006 car of the year because of its ability to attain composure over these inconsistencies. Its not simply a tightened go-cart chassis. Sure its firm-but abominable over less than adequate roads-uuuhhhh no! Additionally, in most of the world-handling plays an important role-especially when it comes to accident avoidence and coping with less than perfect weather conditions.

If sportiness is irrevelant, why would you even look at this segment??? I mean, arent these sports sedans?-most of these cars including the Benz, lexus, and infiniti define their most imporatant attribute in handling-thats why the great majority of these competitors are rwd-and not fwd.. and thats why people buy them over a corolla and accord. So to say that handling is irrevelant makes me question whether your opinion has any validation at all. Handling and driving is what makes us, car fans, tick-how are you an enthusiast if you dont consider that as an important attribute-if cars are simply tools to get from a to b then why are you here? Or more importantly, if cars are just a status symbol-like the mercedes-get yourself a rolex and save a few grand...

Karma for you! Brilliant post!

Benzboi_inoz · 05-27-2007, 09:06 AM

Matt I seem to have struck a nerve. BMW fanboy perhaps? Either way, no intention on my part to offend you. I stick by my viewpoints and comments, as it has been my own comparitive experience with other brands when driving many different examples of the new 3 series on the run flat tyres, which are the main culprit, rather than the suspension settings per se, as they are aguably totally unsuited to our indifferent roads.

My own experiences and thoughts re the ride quality are also backed up by local professional reviews. I guess we have very different roads here to Europe or the US. Perhaps abominable was a bit strong, but I think it is otherwise appropriate given the overall expense of the car, for which I would expect much better, but I would settle for unpleasant on rough roads. Touring cars they are not IMHO.

Sportiness is relevant either on a race track with club days, or way, way out in the boonies where you hope to not meet an oncoming car on your side of the road, or an inland revnue collector, aka policeman, waiting to take you licence away and confiscate your car on the spot. Which they can and do do.

Sportiness matters in theory, when discussing cars as enthusiasts and car fans; it also matters when you are buying one with your own hard earned, and not just driving a demo model, or your dads or mates car or whatever, but you acutually have to pay and maintain it yourself. Then the sportiness will still matter, but so will a lot of other issues involved in owning and living with a car IME. A balance of attributes in a vehicle is a very nice thing to have. BMW's and Mercedes IMHO are very balanced vehicles. If sportiness was the main parameter in assesing a vehicle, I have yet to drive non M series BMWs that could measure up to say a Porsche for driving involvement and satisfaction. Or for that matter, striping away the reputation and semi-luxury-executive car image, something as otherwise pedestrian, but very charasmatic, superbly balanced in its driving dynamics and a ball of fun to drive, such as an Mazda MX5, which is much more involving and sporty to drive than any non M series BMW IMHO. I'd much prefer the BMW to drive and own myself, but "ultimate driving machine'? er, no, not in my experience. Besides, such an accolade is very, very subjective at best.

Quote:

So to say that handling is irrevelant makes me question whether your opinion has any validation at all.

Well, actually Matt, I said sportiness, not handling. Please quote me correctly.

I said:

Quote:

But in my part of the world, sportiness whilst it still sells, its becomming more and more irrelevant in terms of how you can use it on public roads, with speeding being seen as an criminal offence, and speed cameras on near every intersection, and a 3 kph tolerance.

I love sporty, involving and beautiful handling cars. However, there is the pragmatic reality, that just as Oil reserves are drying up, the days one could use a high performance motor car on public roads in THIS country, are heavily numbered unfortunately. I'm simply saying that as either an image/selling point, or if one is a petrol head and gets off on going as fast as possible wherever, one is likly to wind up in jail, with your car confiscated, and that is a hard and unpleasant truth in this country.

As to the relevance of what I have to say? Well Matt, it is only an opinion, and you are free to disagree with it. However, forgive me for getting it wrong, if I gain the impression that, as I say, I have hit a nerve with you, and that it is my criticising a BMW that makes my opinion 'irrelevant'. My experience of BMW fanboys, and I have a close friend who is one, is that they simply cannot see beyond the Blue and white spinning propellor point of view. Thou shalt have no God but BMW etc. I don't know you, so don't know if you fit in this camp, but that is how it seems.

However I apologise in advance if I am in error here. It is very easy with text to form erroneous viewpoints, and garner false impressions.

Matt said:

Quote:

Handling and driving is what makes us, car fans, tick-how are you an enthusiast if you dont consider that as an important attribute-if cars are simply tools to get from a to b then why are you here?

Of course handling and driving are important. But there are many qualities in driving a car that can appeal for a whole lot of different reasons, not just straight line speed, or how fast it can corner etc... feel comes into it - for instance BMW's are rated for having superb steering, and they do, up to a point - yet I've never driven ANY car with a power assisted rack that can even get near to matching the feel in the steering of an unassisted rack, found in something like an Caterham for instance.

Or how about ride quality. Why does that not matter as regards driving attributes, or a desirable quality? I have a few friends who are dyed in the wool car nuts, but they love and adore, Citroen. Not all car enthusiasts are about speed and power, other things matter too.

As to why I'm here? Well, I like Benzes in particular, and this seemed like a good place to join to find out more information, and have some friendly debates and discussion about Mercs, and other cars in General. Flame fests, or my willy is bigger than yours competitions are of no interest to me. Nor is ego grandstanding with "I know more than you, or my viewpoint is right, and yours is wrong" type of arguments either.

Learning, growing, sharing, having some fun, maybe make a few friends, that is why I am here. Is that OK with you, or do I need to buy a BMW to gain admitance to the 'inner sanctum'?

Quote:

Or more importantly, if cars are just a status symbol-like the mercedes-get yourself a rolex and save a few grand...

I see plenty of little blue rinsed hair old ladies, hunched over the wheels of 3 series BMW's everyday, with seeming scarce ability to drive it out of even a wet paper bag. BMW's have a fair corner on the status symbol market here too - arguably more so than Mercedes in this market. So don't think that every one buys one because of the 'ultimate driving machine' marketing spiel, it's simply not true.

Plenty of badge buyers plump for the BMW propellor as they do Benz stars.

All the best

John...

The Artist · 05-27-2007, 10:25 AM

^preach..
to hell with this little extra edge in handling that a 3er might have over a C class..
cause they aint track cars..
not many ppl push their 318 or 320´s to the limit..
and for the ammount of sportyness you need in everyday situations..
the benz is well enough..

so if you buy the bmw or the benz or the audi..its just cause you like how it looks or drives..
not how many fractions of a second it can shave off on the ring

atleast not in this segment im sorry

PS
You would never see me say these kinds of things in a debate about sportscars..but these arent.. im bery bery sorry

chonkoa · 05-27-2007, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

Top 5:

1. 335i
2. 335i
3. 335i
4. 335i
5. Other 3er

That is quite straight forward isn't it?

Just_me · 05-27-2007, 05:59 PM

I dont care much about seconds on a track in real life but I do care about sport. I like BMW roadcars becuase of traction, handling, RWD, steering feedback and the gearbox. You feel connected while driving with a nice roadfeeling.
Feelings has nothing to do with seconds. BMW gives me more feelings thats why I rate BMW (in most cases) over the competition hence MB and Audi. BMW has a nice line between sport and comfort.

Seconds on a track, I dont care since I dont have skills like Schumacher or Alonso but I do care about feelings and I feel more for BMW roadcars.

HighestOfHigh · 05-29-2007, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzboi_inoz

Well

Ahem....I broke the tie...

I voted C Class Benz (W204) as my overall (No 1) pick.

Reason; exterior design which to my eyes combines sportiness, flair, and elegance at the same time. The so called Agility control damping, let alone the optional so called 'Advanced Agility Control' offers perhaps the best blend of both excellent ride quality, combined with top tier handling and vehicle dynamics of any vehicle here - usually a very difficult balance to achieve.

Further the development miles have been the greatest of any model in Mercedes history, so the promise of bank vault quality and reliablity is very high. Which is an area where the German motor industry generally needs to lift its game IMHO.

No 2 I would put as the Lexus IS250. Reason: overall quality is very high, the fit and finish of things like shut lines and panel gaps is peerless; Lexus must have perhaps the most advanced manufacturing tooling of any car maker on the planet to achieve the assembly line tolerances of manufacturer that they do, and do so consistently.

The customer service and backup is generally recognised in the motor industry as being best worlds practice. Styling is elegant and modern, albeit perhaps a bit anodyne. It is a very fine thing to drive, albeit a bit uninspiring. I dislike the metalised plastic in the centre console personally.

The value for money of the product is outstanding and is a lesson to the Germans IMHO.

No 3 for me would be the Audi: Reason - overall quality is regarded as being the best of the German big 'three' and the quatro system is a real plus. If it were front wheel drive model only, then I would put it behind any of the other RWD vehicles as regards overall vehicle dynamics.

They are beautifully made and finished, and very nice to drive, albeit to my mind lacking the comfort of a Benz, or quite the sportiness of a BMW.

No 4 for me would be the BMW 3 series. Reason: The most sporty drive here I would think (I've driven most of the BMW range, but not infinity, cadillac, or Lincoln) and certainly in inline six form, almost certainly one of THE great all time classic engines in the automotive world. But in my part of the world, sportiness whilst it still sells, its becomming more and more irrelevant in terms of how you can use it on public roads, with speeding being seen as an criminal offence, and speed cameras on near every intersection, and a 3 kph tolerance.

Hence, in real world terms, the advantage of the BMW in driving dynamics is a bit negated IMHO due to real world road, traffic, and enforcement measures. On the negative side, BMW insist on fitting all their cars with runflat tyres, which on ideal roads confer great, neutral and fun handling, and on indifferent ones, create a ride that is abominable IME.

Certainly a local magazine in a comparison test of a 550i v's E500 v's Calais (Holden) noted that the ride was so poor that it was inducing motion sickness not only in the passengers, but the driver as well.

No 5 would be the Acura TL: Reason: Honda (Acura) quality is amongst the very best in the world, as are their naturally aspirated engines. I personally like the look of the car, both inside and out. Only the front wheel drive configuration would mark it down for me, from a driving enthusiast point of view.

The rest I will group together, as I have not seen, let alone driven an Cadillac CTS, Lincoln MKZ, or Infiniti G35, as they are not sold here. However, on the basis of photos the Infiniti quite impresses me as regards the exterior, the interior I am a little ambivalent about.

However I do not personally like the Interiors of the Cadillac or Lincoln at all, judging from the photos. A combination of what looks like fake plastic wood, and silver plastic is pretty unpleasant to my eyes, whilst I understand and respect that others may like it.

Thats about it; hope you didn't mind the analysis..

Now, I bet someone will just come along and vote for the 3 series, and create a tie again...lol

Best Regards

John...

Excellent Post, but I am suprised to see the Lexus over the BMW 3 series. I'm sure many BMW fans will question that. (Not that I disagree)

Good job on the C-class

Sir Altitude · 06-28-2007, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siko

Top 5:

1. 335i
2. 335i
3. 335i
4. 335i
5. Other 3er

That's ridiculous...

But I sure do agree

HighestOfHigh · 06-29-2007, 04:14 PM

Looks like the battle is between the C and 3.

HighestOfHigh · 07-02-2007, 01:57 PM

Really starting to like this car.

The Artist · 07-02-2007, 03:51 PM

^SMOKIN.. man i cant wait to see how hot the AMG will be..
this is nutts

View Poll Results: Best little Sedan????
Mercedes-Benz C-class	51	41.13%
Infiniti G35	3	2.42%
Lexus IS	1	0.81%
BMW 3 series	50	40.32%
Audi A4	16	12.90%
Cadillac CTS	1	0.81%
Lincoln MKZ	1	0.81%
Acura TL	1	0.81%
Voters: 124. You may not vote on this poll

05-27-2007, 10:25 AM	#93
The Artist Expert Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sweden Gothenburg Posts: 13,186 Thanks: 257 Thanked 1,235 Times in 678 Posts	*Re: Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)!** ^preach.. to hell with this little extra edge in handling that a 3er might have over a C class.. cause they aint track cars.. not many ppl push their 318 or 320´s to the limit.. and for the ammount of sportyness you need in everyday situations.. the benz is well enough.. so if you buy the bmw or the benz or the audi..its just cause you like how it looks or drives.. not how many fractions of a second it can shave off on the ring atleast not in this segment im sorry PS You would never see me say these kinds of things in a debate about sportscars..but these arent.. im bery bery sorry

05-27-2007, 05:59 PM	#95
Just_me Executive Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 15,487 Thanks: 1,062 Thanked 3,722 Times in 1,583 Posts	*Re: Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)!** I dont care much about seconds on a track in real life but I do care about sport. I like BMW roadcars becuase of traction, handling, RWD, steering feedback and the gearbox. You feel connected while driving with a nice roadfeeling. Feelings has nothing to do with seconds. BMW gives me more feelings thats why I rate BMW (in most cases) over the competition hence MB and Audi. BMW has a nice line between sport and comfort. Seconds on a track, I dont care since I dont have skills like Schumacher or Alonso but I do care about feelings and I feel more for BMW roadcars.

06-29-2007, 04:14 PM	#98
HighestOfHigh Advocate Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 529 Thanks: 33 Thanked 83 Times in 49 Posts	*Re: Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)!** Looks like the battle is between the C and 3.

07-02-2007, 01:57 PM	#99
HighestOfHigh Advocate Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 529 Thanks: 33 Thanked 83 Times in 49 Posts	*Re: Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)!** Really starting to like this car.

07-02-2007, 03:51 PM	#100
The Artist Expert Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sweden Gothenburg Posts: 13,186 Thanks: 257 Thanked 1,235 Times in 678 Posts	*Re: Little Sedan BATTLE* (C-class, A4, 3 series...)!** ^SMOKIN.. man i cant wait to see how hot the AMG will be.. this is nutts