Beemer B773ER

That colour adjustment can (and should) be done before the image is even taken. That's the skill of photography, to be able to know which setting/s are best for which conditions. It kinda sucks if you just put your camera on 'Auto mode', get a very dull image, and then let Photoshop turn it into magic.

Im not saying people need to be experts and instinctively know what setting to use, but rather learn through trial and error. Take a shot, review it.. take another, compare the two... and so on.

Choleric

The point is it can be done in photoshop and the developmental process, just as the border can, so both are within the rules.

Not everybody here is a serious photographer so saying they should take the perfect picture everytime without any need for any photo adjustments in a computer program is ridiculous. Photoshop is pretty much a given in digital photography so its not really fair to say people who use "suck".

Zonda

I think borders and signatures in photos should be allowed.

Borders can be added simply by putting the photo on a piece of paper, if done well it can look like a part of the picture (or if later on copied). And some photographers would never enter any of their photos without a signature on it as it serves as advertising for themselves and it makes sure noone can take credit for their photos.
We may not have any right now but in the future when we get some professional photografers I doubt they would enter unless they could have their signauters or link to their website on the pic.

Beemer B773ER

So this competition is less a show of photographic skill, but rather a show of Photoshop knowledge?


I'm not debating whether it's within the rules or not because you've convinced me it is within current rules. What I am debating is whether that rule should be changed or not.

So by allowing PS adjustments you are helping those photographers who are not highly skilled in getting the correct camera settings for. What about those here who are not that skilled in using PS (or similar image enhancing programs) ?

I know it would be difficult to enforce a rule where no image enhancing is allowed because anyone could easily enhance their image yet claim it was not. I get that... but what I find a little 'unfair' is being able to use Photoshop to add effects/enhancements that are capable by only film cameras to digital images.
Digital cameras do not have a 'developmental process', so applying film camera enhancements such as borders or any other effects that are exclusive to film cameras should not be applied to digital images.

Those 2 images you posted a couple of post ago is a good example of my point.
The second image could easily be taken with a digital camera. All you have to do is either change the EV setting, reduce the shutter speed or to get a higher aperture f-stop. Isn't that the fun in photography? ..

I don't exactly find any fun or skill in simply taking a single photo, walking back in the house, uploading the photo to Photoshop, enhancing the image in a matter of 30seconds and then simply posting the photo in the competition.

..And how far are you going to allow PS enhancements. Again using the 2 pics you posted as an example. Someone could easily add a 'Sharpening' layer to the water to create more defining waves, but at the same time blur the clouds a bit and explain that the clouds were blurred because he/she had a slow shutter speed. This would have to be considered within the rules because it is attainable in the natural process of photography. But as you can see, it shows a greater skill of Photoshop rather than Photography.

So if you want to make this a Photography+Photoshop compeition then that's ok... but I don't think that's being true to the art of Photography.

Professional photographer's wouldn't post their top-grade photos in our competition in the first place because there are no prizes or major recognition.. just a simple 'Congratulations'. If you want to add signature for copyright purposes.. well then that's an issue which has to be discussed seperately I guess.

Choleric

First of all, we must remeber these are friendly competitions and it's not important to get to upity over little things like we have.

I believe we have had a nice run with these competitions and no one has really complained about anything, until now with the borders. We have had at least some photos in each comp since I believe week 8 or 9 with borders, so why do you bring this up now?

Short answer:
Photoshop and other photo editing programs are the darkroom of digital photography and therefor can never be disregaurded from photography.

Long Answer:
When we look at the rules that are in place, which are intended to create an equal setting to level the playing field of all participants. It is clear that the borders and the other photoshop adjustments mentioned do fall under the rules. As it is I feel these rules are fair since I believe we could find the majority of winning photos in the competitions are not edited a whole lot. Also the people here are not heavy photo critics, you dont see people comenting on exposure, lighting, framing and basing their vote on this, they just vote for what looks nice. This is simply a place where we have friendly competitions where we share are photogrophy and see what others like. There are other serious photography forums and websites were you can compete if your intent is to compete seriously.

Photoshop(and other photo editing programs) is essentially the darkroom of digital photography, so not allowing the use of the features that are the equivelent of what can be done with a film camera in the darkroom is simply not fair. How much you use photoshop is up to you, as too much can be bad, but also most photos could use a little help from photoshop, as I said earlier photoshop is part of digital photography.

Not everybody takes the absolute perfect picture with the perfect settings every time, so photoshop is there to help, afterall you dont always have the oppurtunity to sit there and retake a photo until you get it right. And if you don't have photoshop or some other photoediting program, and you don't like that photo than you wouldnt use that one anyways and youd find anotherone. As I said before I believe most photos that have won here are fairly unedited. I myself don't like to take bad pictures and make them good in photoshop, rather take good photos and try to make them better.

If you prefer not to use photoshop that is your choice and a fair one at that but, you should not discount others photography simply because they use photoshop or any other photo editing program.

Choleric

I'd also appreciate others input on this, so far we have only four people commenting on this.

Edit:

Looking back at this i must say this is being blown way out of proportion: The issue of borders being within the rules was raised, it was concluded that it was, so really there should be no more argument after that.


As for this week I will not include Dasilva's or my own photo in the voting thread until we decide on this but if it we agree this is acceptable I feel DaSilva and Myself should be allowed to enter these hotos again at a later date if so desired.

Mr. M

Should we have a vote? Easier for everyone to decide rather than having everybody giving their inputs...

Bruce

I don't want to go in-depth into this, but I'll cut to the chase. I see no problem with borders

Beemer B773ER

Well like I said in my initial post, a friend of mine brought it to my attention. Prior to then the 'border' issue went under my radar.


Well in this case i'll yield and say I apologise for making this issue more than it really is.
I'll be happy to accept borders simply because, as you said, this is not a serious competition but rather just a fun place where we can show our pictures to others who share the same interest. I'm sorry if I went too far with my line of thinking earlier.

Also, I don't feel Choleric and DaSilva's photo's for this week should be barred from the voting process. No rule was ever decided against their photo's, so therefore no move should be taken to bar them from the voting period.

The only point I was trying to make earlier was that I thought it was unfair to apply film camera effects to digital camera photos as they are not attainable by digital cameras themselves. Enhancing things such as hue, saturation, contrast and so on can be done with a digital camera... but since some of us may not be that skilled at camera settings, we can then use PS to help us make up for those skills. But with a digital camera, it's not a matter of not having the skill or knowledge to get that 'border' effect, but a matter of it being impossible to do with a digital camera.
That's why I believed that a border effect was going one step too far in terms of Photoshop enhancements.
That's what my original point was... but I admit I did go off on a tangent in the following posts.

..But... it is just a friendly competition, and everyone and anyone is allowed to use a border, so I retract my initial point of no borders.


P.S. Thank you Choleric for being so rationale about all this. I know my posts could have extracted a more 'mean' and frustrated response... but you didn't.

Choleric

Well, I am glad youre being civil in this as well, I can see where you're coming from the with the borders, but I would still like more input, perhaps I will make a poll...

I withheld Dasilvas and myown photo because I am the one who makes the voting threads and I did not think it was fair for me to make that judgement without more discussion, so I just eliminated any chance of conflict.