Michael

It seems that we have avid fans on board this forum when it comes to aviation. So with that said let me start this thread and speak on more on that topic.

I have been following the Airbus vs. Boeing ordeal for quite some time now. I do not follow it for financial purposes or because I am an avid fan of one (however I have liked Boeing for many years now).

Several years ago Airbus, a European based aircraft manufacturere, decided to go against the 'queen of the skys'--the Boeing 747. They decided to call it the A3XX which would later be called and finalized as the A380. This aircraft is truly a marvel and has shaped and challeneged the aviation industry as we know it. However, big projects like these do not come without their down falls. I for one think that the A380 is a marvelous aicraft but its sheer size is only going to limit it to certain airports. However, Airbus would say that this was precisely the plan for this aicraft, so indeed some maay argue and conclude that there is nothing wrong with that. I for one think that this may be a downfall eventually for the A380. Although this is not the intention of this thread I did want to mention it for the sake of sparking some conversation once the delay topic is exhausted.

The A380 has suffered delays. Yes. What was feared by many, and what Airbus knew they thought could be fixed, has happened more than once. In the recent weeks articles have come out asserting many different aspects of this delay. Some say that executives at Aibus knew about the delays and sold their stock way before any announcement was made leading to speculation of insider trading. I will let you be the judge on that later on.

I do however think that these delays may benefit Boeing more than Airbus. Boeing has a developed a new version of the 747 which is named the 747-800. The 747-800 has knew incorporated technology which will be extremely fuel efficient. However, there is only one customer for the passenger version. My theory is that there are some airlines out there that have yet to purchase an A380. Knowing that these delays have pushed back the production rate and the date of deliveries for many airlines, I would assume that some of these airlines may opt for the 747-800.

The 747 after all is a proven frame with new advancments this time around. It is claimed to be more fuel efficient per passenger than the A380 and I think can travel a longer distance.

So, with that said. I truly believe that Airbus may lose some customers to the new 747-800 whic ultimately may make Boeing the winner as we have seen with the direction Boeing took the 787. Ultimately airlines want something that is profitable but inexpensive to maintain and fly.

Mr. M

I saw a documentary about the manufacture of the A380 once, and while the processes are world-class, the time it takes to make one plane is simply atrocious. They would have to transport the unfinished plane through long distances, and at one instance, even squeezing through tiny town roads (gaps between the wing tip and the building only measures centimetres) in order to get to the destination to complete the plane.

Singapore Airlines is already getting pissed about the delays, they're demanding compensation.

That said, I do prefer the Dreamliner over the extended 747-800.

Michael

I do prefer the 747-800 as well. In reference to the comment you made about the plane being transported for completion is semi-correct. The whole plane is not transported, but merely massive parts are. For example, the fuselage which is cacoon where the passengers are transported is a major piece that is tranportes as well as the wings. However, the plane is finally put together in Tolouse France.

ZicZachZo

I've followed the A380 as well for a long time now it seems, and I'm kind of pissed that they are delaying it more and more. I find it amusing that Boeing kept saying things like the A380 would fail, that airliners would want something smaller. In a sense they are correct, just looking at all the orders for the 787. But then they throw in some updated version of the 747. I guess they have to compete. But it makes them look kind of scared in a way. Ah well. Aviation is great. We should talk about it more on this... erm... car site... heh.

Michael

Well Boeing is not competing with the A380. The 747-800 is made to fill in the gap between the 777 and the A380. In a way they are competing, however, because they may take sales away because of delays and cost. However, their plan was to just increase the capability of a well proven frame. This frame of course will come with an incredible amount of updates including but not limited to fueal efficiency, greater payload, more passengers, etc.

Mr. M

Ah yes, you're right. It has been quite a while since I watched that documentary.

Michael

This quote is from another thread. I wanted to bring it here so that I can continue the dicussion.

In reference to what you (Beemer Boi) said about the engines I did not know. I thought that the 777LR had the same engines, however, once you mentioned the engine model numbers I realized that it may be true. I know you are right I just need my brain to sit there and process the information.

Beemer B773ER

Sorry BMWFREAK, I must apologise for some incorrect information.

I said the 772LR had GE90-110's, but the aircraft actually has the same engines as the 773ER (ie: GE90-115's), except that the engine power (ie: thrust) is actually detuned from 115,000lbs of thrust to 110,000lbs.
Therefore, it has the same engines, just tuned down thrust output, which at first I found rather intriguing and perplexing, but with added thought, I'm assumming the reason for the engine tweak was to increase the aircraft's range marginally by not having to feed the engines that little bit extra fuel.
Either that, or simply an added point of differentiation between the 772LR and the 773ER, but I doubt that since the power decrease is so marginal.

Both aircraft look superb, especially with the intimidating GE90's. Here's some interesting/amazing/make-you-say-WOW information to digest.
The outside diameter of the GE90's, that is, the diameter of the outside of the engine, not the size of the intakes, is only 7cm (2.84 inches) smaller than the interior diameter of older 737 models. When I read that, my jaw just dropped. I'll try and find the link for you.


GE90 Engine diameter: 3.43m (135in.) - ONLY REGISTERED AND ACTIVATED USERS CAN SEE ALL LINKS - CLICK HERE TO REGISTER

737 (all models) Cabin-width: 3.5m (137.8 in.) - ONLY REGISTERED AND ACTIVATED USERS CAN SEE ALL LINKS - CLICK HERE TO REGISTER

So yes, very fascinating those GE90's..and I'm sure you've come across pictures of people fully standing inside the engines and only managing to be half the height of the engine. I would love to see a 773ER someday up-close, dunno how though !?!


Anyhoot, back onto the so-called 'WhaleJet'.
I have to say I'm not it's biggest fan by a long-shot (mainly because I'm such a 747 fan), so in a sense, hearing of the A380's delays is music to my ears. But in another light, I have to say I have a lot of respect for Airbus in undertaking and developing such a marvel. Ok, some Boeing fans might say, "gee, it took someone long enough to surpass the 747!", but I think that's just the key to it, the fact that it has succeed the Queen of the Skies. Sure it may look butt-ugly and be terribly out of proportion when compared to the perfect profile of the 747, but no one can take away what the aircraft represents - A New Horizon in mass passenger transportation.
Again a Boeing fan could argue "Well, if an airline opts for 800 seats, then the plane itself can't fly all that far due to the large weight disadvantage associated with carrying such a number of passengers" ... but I guess that still doesn't change the fact that the A380 is what it is: The Largest Commercial Aircraft in History.

Hate it or Love it, the A380 is something special. Forget who it's developed by, forget its name, forget all the hype, forget all the flaming... and try (as hard as you can) to forget its appearances.... there's no way in denying the opportunities it offers to airlines.

That said, as I commented above, these delays offer a sense of music to my ears. Being a Boeing fan ever since my dad bought me a toy model of the 747 when I still didn't even know how to pronounce Boeing, there's that fanboy part of me which is pleased to hear of these delays. The (so far) poor take up of the 747-8 only further puts a smile on my face when reading of the A380 delays as it means that some airlines may opt to re-think their A380 orders in favour of the trusted, reliable, and already mated facilities of the 747 series.

How Singapore Airlines, Emirates and Qantas act towards Airbus will be very interesting. They realise the aircraft is very important, so it's highly doubtful they'll do a 180 on the 380. But compensation, ...man oh man is that gonna be a HOT topic of discussion. Taking the Qantas example, the airline was told it would receive its first A380 by April, but after Airbus issued its first delay for the A380, delivery for Qantas Airways was pushed back, and the recent second delay just adds salt into the proverbial wounds that Airbus has inflicted into Qantas' anticipated seat sales.
As I've read a bit on Airliners.net, seems like Airbus will have to make up for the loss of available seats as a result of the A380 delays by temporarily paying for Qantas to get a few 744's. First question... where the hell do you get a few spare 744's ? Mojave Desert? Borrow a couple of 744's from British Airways? ... Second question... just how much is this going to cost Airbus who already have the development-cost boulder weighing on their shoulders.
And that's just the 380, ..add to it the undesirable position that the A350 is in. The 787 is superior to the 350 in practically every facet, so improving the 350 atleast be on par with the Dreamliner will be a timely and costly exercise at that. Want me to add more fuel to the Airbus million dollar bonfire? Well, now Airbus is considering revamping the A350 to take-on not only the 787, but also the 777 in the form of a brand new A370. No need to mention the costs associated with developing that.

So there's all this doom and gloom in the Airbus crystal ball, ...so what picture does the crystal ball paint when flown to the other side of the English Channel?
Airbus gambled on a high-capacity aircraft while Boeing did extensive market research and opted for the twin-engine, point-to-point, lightweight materials and greater fuel efficiency path. The 787 really is a hit, and continually increasing order numbers show this. Ofcourse I'm not stupid enough to compare A380 sales to the 787, but popularity for the 78' really is high. Let's not forget the wave that Boeing is riding as a result of its 777 range. Becoming the fastest twin-aisle commercial airplane to reach 500 deliveries in history, gaining 180-minute ETOPS rating, having a record setting range, fastest average speed of any commercial airplane, as well as a host of accolades and awards all add to the success of the 777.
Sounds like Boeing had a long-hard look at themselves, and now they are really reaping the benefits. They did indeed get out-done by Airbus in sales last year, but 'something' tells me it ain't gonna be the same this year. OK, so that 'something' is called common sense, but good times for Boeing ahead, while Airbus faces headache after headache simply because they tried to bite off more than they could chew...and ofcourse some poor contingency planning and management which has lead to these delays.

And people here think the rivalry between BMW, MB and Audi is something, ... their rivalry pails in significance to the heated head-to-head battle between Boeing and Airbus!!

Michael

I want to answer your post in detail, however, right now I have finals so I will get to it later.

Beemer B773ER

Ah yes, the pain of finals... I remember it as if it were yesterday. As a matter of fact it was yesterday. .. I too am having to study for finals, hence my delayed first post in this (and the SR-71) thread/s.


Good Luck in your finals buddy!!