BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies - Page 10

SDNR · 04-22-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Mercedes

I think we've all given Audi a bit too much credit prematurely. If you look at the R8, in no way does it represent 'Vorsprung Durch Technik'. There's nothing about the design that say's it was influenced by technical requirements or the application of new technologies. Even the LED's have been implemented for the sake of seeking attention, not for technical advancement. It's all a bit too try hard and tacky, and even then the car doesn't take your breath away.

Also, look at the new ‘Cross Coupe’ concept, it's carries on with the existing Audi design language, but in no way is it as thoroughly resolved as their current range. It also bring NOTHING new to the table in terms of design.

AUDI hit a masterstroke when they applied the BOLD grill to a somewhat staid design language and range of vehicles. It provided the perfect balance. Their dilemma now lays with evolving a range of worthy successors and moving the design forward. And it’s clear they are struggling with this greatly. The A5 is a nice looking car, great looking even, but it's design is in NO WAY pure Audi. It also sits rather incongruously with the R8, TT and the new Cross Coupe concept. While some have said it represents an emotive evolution to the current design language, isn’t it a case that Audi’s current design language draws interest, appeal and emotion from its cool and crisp aesthetic…not misplaced curves and creases.

The shooting brake concept was also extremely unconvincing and had scant appeal. There’s a reason why it was CANNED. A vehicle that was also supposed to represent Audi's design future!!

Most of us are guilty to this, but I believe we’ve all be tooting Audi’s trumpet a bit too much and perhaps even prematurely.

Interesting. But I will stand by Audi on this one, I still believe they have done extremely well. The R8 is not a disaster, it might not be as exciting as the BMW concept, but the R8 is not a concept vehicle so we shouldn't compare it with the CS.

I still think the RSQ from 2004 is one of the most exciting concepts for a long time -- it is not just an exercise in flashy styling either, those spherical wheels are a technical revolution too.

SDNR · 04-23-2007, 12:23 AM

I apologize if this has been posted before but it is an interesting article

Audi's Design Guy Looks Inward
The auto maker's Walter Maria de'Silva predicts a revolution in interior design, from ergonomics to materials

Italy's Walter Maria de'Silva proved he could change the fortunes of an auto maker in the 1990s with his bold restyling of Alfa Romeo -- a coup that revived the sporty Italian brand. But the challenge was even greater when Volkswagen offered him the job of chief designer for its premium Audi Group, overseeing the Audi, Lamborghini, and Seat brands, in 2002.

De'Silva's task was to inject Audi's cars with excitement and emotion -- without diverging too radically from the brand's clean, simple lines and understated "Bauhaus" look. Some auto industry experts shuddered at the potential collision between Italian design and German engineering. But Audi wanted de'Silva to design cars that would turn heads and lure customers from premium rivals BMW and Mercedes-Benz (DCX). And de'Silva delivered.

Audi's latest generation of cars, from the sprinty A3 sportback to the class-beating A8 sedan, are winning top ratings and fueling double-digit sales growth. Audi's new look is edgier, and the gaping front grill exudes raw power.

But de'Silva preserved Audi's classic attention to perfect proportions and form-follows-function simplicity. De'Silva, now sketching the next generation of cars for Audi, spoke with BusinessWeek's Senior European Correspondent Gail Edmondson about the future of auto design from his unadorned office at Audi headquarters in Ingolstadt. Edited excerpts of their conversation follow:

Edgy concept-car designs never intended for the market are now increasingly found cruising down the street. Why is that?
The investment in a concept car is so high, they [almost] have to be used as a base for a production model. In the technology, architecture, design, and construction, concept cars are made with the same attention as making a car for production.

Small cars used to be boring utilitarian boxes. Now they have to win beauty contests to be successful. What happened?
Cars that make you dream used to be top-of-the-line sports cars and luxury sedans. Slowly we understood how important design was. So design language -- this emotional aspect of cars -- is now being applied to everything from a Smart [mini] to the largest sedan. The functional car made to just go from point A to point B is almost nonexistent.

The Europeans seem to enjoy global leadership in auto design, but that wasn't always the case. What ails American car design today?
I was a child in the 1960s, and U.S. cars made everyone dream -- it was their incredible size and exaggerated design. The U.S. did marvelous cars. The Corvette is an icon. That was something that influenced a lot of European design.

But U.S. car design doesn't make people dream anymore. It's perhaps a reflection of the social-political moment we are living.

I'm not trying to make a political statement, but the country and the culture seems in a defensive mode, which puts a brake on expression through art, architecture, fashion, and design. I see an effort on the part of U.S. auto makers, but I see also a frustration that I don't see in Germany, France, or Italy.

When it comes to car design, everyone is producing more dynamic-looking cars with lines that evoke greater emotion -- even Opel. Audi was a market leader with its new, expressive design. But what do you do when a "new look" has been copied by many others?
We are a premium brand, and we have to follow our own design philosophy. Our only motto is to be a leader not a follower in technology, quality, and design. The evolution of design is constant. What Audi did over the last three years in introducing new models and new design no other auto maker has accomplished in the same amount of time.

I see a period of consolidation ahead. But we are already working on the architecture of the next platform. It's a huge step forward -- the architecture is even better and the cars will be even more beautiful. The proportions will be even better.

What are the most important design trends affecting next-generation cars?
In the future I see a huge improvement in car interiors. We have to work a lot to create a kind of internal architecture and environment that is even more oriented to the customer. We are studying new seats that are more ergonomic. We can do more to enhance the simplicity of the cockpit, the dashboard, and the instruments.

And we will focus on materials -- that they are distributed in the right way and that they create the perception of quality. Information systems are another important area for interior design. The telephone, radio, and all the other buttons have to be clear and intuitive to enhance safety. Interiors will change a lot.

You shouldn't confuse luxury with prestige and exclusivity. There is a different way to interpret each. I see evolution on the exterior of cars and revolution in the interiors.

What about interior lighting?
We will see a combination of the use of music and lights in new features. We also want to study microenvironments, like dividing the front and the back of the car when it comes to noise. That would allow kids to watch TV while a passenger in the front is on the phone.

The interior of the car will be treated like the architectural space of a museum or house. That's my vision.

What do you think of Renault's Logan, the $6,000 car?
Aesthetically it doesn't do much for me. But I don't know the project so I can't say whether it could have been prettier. Low cost can be beautiful. It's a valid concept.

Audi sets the benchmark in interior auto design, but everyone is racing to copy you on better materials, intuitive information systems, and buttons with delicate feedback to the fingertips. What will the next generation of Audi's cars have that the competition won't have?
Perfection, absolute quality, the right materials. Soon we will see a more studied environment inside the car -- to give it more visible and tactical quality. It's not decoration, but architecture. It will be totally new.

What are the most striking cars on the road in your opinion?
I like the Aston Martin DB9. They've done a magnificent job. It's a big car with classy proportions. I would happily buy it. That's my test. I still like the Porsche 911. Maybe because it's been around since I was a child, and I grew up with it.

I appreciate the design of the new Fiat Punto. It's a success. It's intuitively well-proportioned. That's not easy. It has a beautiful personality, especially the front. And it's not aggressive. It's friendly.

And I have to say the Audi A6 Avant is the most beautiful station wagon in the world, just to name an Audi. And with the Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder, we did a great car. The coupe is beautiful but the Spyder is something more.

What is your dream project?
I have the fortune of working for a company with projects in 360 degrees of direction. That is a dream job. Since we are in the premium segment, there are no limits.

In the future you will see families of cars at Audi. The field from the A3 to the A8 is huge, but in the future there will be even more.

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SDNR · 04-23-2007, 12:30 AM

I feel Audi might be slightly loosing some of its integrity with the Cross Coupe Quattro Concept. The RSQ was so purely Audi. The essence of Audi design should be simplicity and purity. Walter Maria de'Silva said Audi had to follow its own design philosophy but I can see clear similarities with BMW here.

It has a fantastic interior design though.

Imhotep Evil · 04-23-2007, 06:24 AM

I don't understand why people are so surprised about the Cross Coupe Quattro Concept from Audi.

Audi's history showed that something like this will come. Aero, Bauhaus, humanitive/emotive.

Audi is not BMW, regardless of what some enthusiastical people around here tought. It doesn't have it's history, particularly its design history and brand identity.

Mr. M · 04-23-2007, 07:50 AM

From a layman's POV (with no design knowledge whatsoever):

The ODC looks extravagant and luxurious, but it also looks like it's built for pensioners.

The Concept CS looks like a car that is supposed to compete with the CLS.

Both cars share some similarities in the curvature of the surfaces, as well their sheer sizes, but that's about it IMO.

Tycoon · 04-23-2007, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mirage77

The Concept CS looks like a car that is supposed to compete with the CLS.

Being bigger and wider than 7er, i don't think it's competitor is CLS...

SDNR · 04-23-2007, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imhotep Evil

I don't understand why people are so surprised about the Cross Coupe Quattro Concept from Audi.

Audi's history showed that something like this will come. Aero, Bauhaus, humanitive/emotive.

Audi is not BMW, regardless of what some enthusiastical people around here tought. It doesn't have it's history, particularly its design history and brand identity.

I'm sorry Imhotep Evil, I simply cannot agree with you. Audi does have a strong historical design culture -- they, like all German brands (AEG, Braun, WMF, Mercedes-Benz, VW, Thonet, Hansgrohe, Hugo Pott, etc, adhered strongly to the design principles from the Bauhaus -- Form Follows Function ...an emphasis on design for mechanized serial production (and with a general "Machine Aesthetic") This is the history of German Modern design.

Mr. M · 04-23-2007, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TycoonGTR

Being bigger and wider than 7er, i don't think it's competitor is CLS...

Yup, I think it looks like a response to the CLS... But it's definitely competing at a higher-rung segment.

Imhotep Evil · 04-23-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

I'm sorry Imhotep Evil, I simply cannot agree with you. Audi does have a strong historical design culture -- they, like all German brands (AEG, Braun, WMF, Mercedes-Benz, VW, Thonet, Hansgrohe, Hugo Pott, etc, adhered strongly to the design principles from the Bauhaus -- Form Follows Function ...an emphasis on design for mechanized serial production (and with a general "Machine Aesthetic") This is the history of German Modern design.

Audi's design trademark is the shift in design (Aero, Bauhaus, Emotive-human). It's the opposite of Porsche.

BMW is the bits, trademarks, evolved/refined since the 303 model.
- when the BMW replaced the inline 4 with the inline the bonnet became longer
- the kidney grille was there (some some say to cool off the new inline 6 engine)
- with the 328 the dual headlight were incorporated into the bonnet to improve aerodynamics, later the duals become the quads on the higher models, then on all models
- the gills were also there on BMW cars since the 1930s and continued on roadsters and coupes till today
- the Hofmeister kink camed in the early 1960s
- the coupe roof line nicely droped down appeared on the 503 of the 1950s, while in the 3200 of the early 60s that meat with the Hofmeister kink thus the
patern followed till this day.
- then we had the L/Reverse L rear lights and driver orientated front interior

Audi had nothing like this.

SDNR · 04-23-2007, 12:19 PM

IE, BMW also followed the German Mondern principles as taught at the Bauhaus.

I'm not talking about "style" here -- it really has little to do with the style of the vehicle or any of the signature details. The Bauhaus school in Dessau was probably the single most influential art/design institution of the Modern Movement. Great emphasis was placed on conceiving objects to be produced by machines (lessoning the requirements for manual labour). This, and the strict principle that an object should express its purpose (its function) through its appearence (the aesthetics of functionalism) were of paramount importance. There was also a deliberate intention to create objects which expressed a new "Machine Aesthetic" -- objects to be produced by machines, designed with no superflous decorative details -- reduced to essential functionality (Less is more) and expressing the new industrialized world. These tenets influenced western design for most of the twentieth century -- things started to get more experimental in the 1950s but it really wasn't untill the mid 1960s that the Post-Modern revolution in design started to break with these "rules" of Modernism.

04-23-2007, 12:23 AM	#92
SDNR Connoisseur Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,985 Thanks: 1,319 Thanked 870 Times in 534 Posts	Re: BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies I apologize if this has been posted before but it is an interesting article Audi's Design Guy Looks Inward The auto maker's Walter Maria de'Silva predicts a revolution in interior design, from ergonomics to materials Italy's Walter Maria de'Silva proved he could change the fortunes of an auto maker in the 1990s with his bold restyling of Alfa Romeo -- a coup that revived the sporty Italian brand. But the challenge was even greater when Volkswagen offered him the job of chief designer for its premium Audi Group, overseeing the Audi, Lamborghini, and Seat brands, in 2002. De'Silva's task was to inject Audi's cars with excitement and emotion -- without diverging too radically from the brand's clean, simple lines and understated "Bauhaus" look. Some auto industry experts shuddered at the potential collision between Italian design and German engineering. But Audi wanted de'Silva to design cars that would turn heads and lure customers from premium rivals BMW and Mercedes-Benz (DCX). And de'Silva delivered. Audi's latest generation of cars, from the sprinty A3 sportback to the class-beating A8 sedan, are winning top ratings and fueling double-digit sales growth. Audi's new look is edgier, and the gaping front grill exudes raw power. But de'Silva preserved Audi's classic attention to perfect proportions and form-follows-function simplicity. De'Silva, now sketching the next generation of cars for Audi, spoke with BusinessWeek's Senior European Correspondent Gail Edmondson about the future of auto design from his unadorned office at Audi headquarters in Ingolstadt. Edited excerpts of their conversation follow: Edgy concept-car designs never intended for the market are now increasingly found cruising down the street. Why is that? The investment in a concept car is so high, they [almost] have to be used as a base for a production model. In the technology, architecture, design, and construction, concept cars are made with the same attention as making a car for production. Small cars used to be boring utilitarian boxes. Now they have to win beauty contests to be successful. What happened? Cars that make you dream used to be top-of-the-line sports cars and luxury sedans. Slowly we understood how important design was. So design language -- this emotional aspect of cars -- is now being applied to everything from a Smart [mini] to the largest sedan. The functional car made to just go from point A to point B is almost nonexistent. The Europeans seem to enjoy global leadership in auto design, but that wasn't always the case. What ails American car design today? I was a child in the 1960s, and U.S. cars made everyone dream -- it was their incredible size and exaggerated design. The U.S. did marvelous cars. The Corvette is an icon. That was something that influenced a lot of European design. But U.S. car design doesn't make people dream anymore. It's perhaps a reflection of the social-political moment we are living. I'm not trying to make a political statement, but the country and the culture seems in a defensive mode, which puts a brake on expression through art, architecture, fashion, and design. I see an effort on the part of U.S. auto makers, but I see also a frustration that I don't see in Germany, France, or Italy. When it comes to car design, everyone is producing more dynamic-looking cars with lines that evoke greater emotion -- even Opel. Audi was a market leader with its new, expressive design. But what do you do when a "new look" has been copied by many others? We are a premium brand, and we have to follow our own design philosophy. Our only motto is to be a leader not a follower in technology, quality, and design. The evolution of design is constant. What Audi did over the last three years in introducing new models and new design no other auto maker has accomplished in the same amount of time. I see a period of consolidation ahead. But we are already working on the architecture of the next platform. It's a huge step forward -- the architecture is even better and the cars will be even more beautiful. The proportions will be even better. What are the most important design trends affecting next-generation cars? In the future I see a huge improvement in car interiors. We have to work a lot to create a kind of internal architecture and environment that is even more oriented to the customer. We are studying new seats that are more ergonomic. We can do more to enhance the simplicity of the cockpit, the dashboard, and the instruments. And we will focus on materials -- that they are distributed in the right way and that they create the perception of quality. Information systems are another important area for interior design. The telephone, radio, and all the other buttons have to be clear and intuitive to enhance safety. Interiors will change a lot. You shouldn't confuse luxury with prestige and exclusivity. There is a different way to interpret each. I see evolution on the exterior of cars and revolution in the interiors. What about interior lighting? We will see a combination of the use of music and lights in new features. We also want to study microenvironments, like dividing the front and the back of the car when it comes to noise. That would allow kids to watch TV while a passenger in the front is on the phone. The interior of the car will be treated like the architectural space of a museum or house. That's my vision. What do you think of Renault's Logan, the $6,000 car? Aesthetically it doesn't do much for me. But I don't know the project so I can't say whether it could have been prettier. Low cost can be beautiful. It's a valid concept. Audi sets the benchmark in interior auto design, but everyone is racing to copy you on better materials, intuitive information systems, and buttons with delicate feedback to the fingertips. What will the next generation of Audi's cars have that the competition won't have? Perfection, absolute quality, the right materials. Soon we will see a more studied environment inside the car -- to give it more visible and tactical quality. It's not decoration, but architecture. It will be totally new. What are the most striking cars on the road in your opinion? I like the Aston Martin DB9. They've done a magnificent job. It's a big car with classy proportions. I would happily buy it. That's my test. I still like the Porsche 911. Maybe because it's been around since I was a child, and I grew up with it. I appreciate the design of the new Fiat Punto. It's a success. It's intuitively well-proportioned. That's not easy. It has a beautiful personality, especially the front. And it's not aggressive. It's friendly. And I have to say the Audi A6 Avant is the most beautiful station wagon in the world, just to name an Audi. And with the Lamborghini Gallardo Spyder, we did a great car. The coupe is beautiful but the Spyder is something more. What is your dream project? I have the fortune of working for a company with projects in 360 degrees of direction. That is a dream job. Since we are in the premium segment, there are no limits. In the future you will see families of cars at Audi. The field from the A3 to the A8 is huge, but in the future there will be even more. - ONLY REGISTERED AND ACTIVATED USERS CAN SEE ALL LINKS - CLICK HERE TO REGISTER

04-23-2007, 12:30 AM	#93
SDNR Connoisseur Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,985 Thanks: 1,319 Thanked 870 Times in 534 Posts	Re: BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies I feel Audi might be slightly loosing some of its integrity with the Cross Coupe Quattro Concept. The RSQ was so purely Audi. The essence of Audi design should be simplicity and purity. Walter Maria de'Silva said Audi had to follow its own design philosophy but I can see clear similarities with BMW here. It has a fantastic interior design though. Last edited by SDNR; 04-23-2007 at 12:46 AM..

04-23-2007, 06:24 AM	#94
Imhotep Evil Aficionado Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 4,382 Thanks: 402 Thanked 279 Times in 198 Posts	Re: BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies I don't understand why people are so surprised about the Cross Coupe Quattro Concept from Audi. Audi's history showed that something like this will come. Aero, Bauhaus, humanitive/emotive. Audi is not BMW, regardless of what some enthusiastical people around here tought. It doesn't have it's history, particularly its design history and brand identity.

04-23-2007, 07:50 AM	#95
Mr. M Connoisseur Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 6,103 Thanks: 2,036 Thanked 1,722 Times in 925 Posts	Re: BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies From a layman's POV (with no design knowledge whatsoever): The ODC looks extravagant and luxurious, but it also looks like it's built for pensioners. The Concept CS looks like a car that is supposed to compete with the CLS. Both cars share some similarities in the curvature of the surfaces, as well their sheer sizes, but that's about it IMO.

04-23-2007, 12:19 PM	#100
SDNR Connoisseur Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5,985 Thanks: 1,319 Thanked 870 Times in 534 Posts	Re: BMW/Mercedes/Audi Design philosophies IE, BMW also followed the German Mondern principles as taught at the Bauhaus. I'm not talking about "style" here -- it really has little to do with the style of the vehicle or any of the signature details. The Bauhaus school in Dessau was probably the single most influential art/design institution of the Modern Movement. Great emphasis was placed on conceiving objects to be produced by machines (lessoning the requirements for manual labour). This, and the strict principle that an object should express its purpose (its function) through its appearence (the aesthetics of functionalism) were of paramount importance. There was also a deliberate intention to create objects which expressed a new "Machine Aesthetic" -- objects to be produced by machines, designed with no superflous decorative details -- reduced to essential functionality (Less is more) and expressing the new industrialized world. These tenets influenced western design for most of the twentieth century -- things started to get more experimental in the 1950s but it really wasn't untill the mid 1960s that the Post-Modern revolution in design started to break with these "rules" of Modernism.