Deutsch

It's the consumer. It could not have been said better than this... inspired by a quote from a review on the new CTS done by TCC (The Car Connection)

TCC Quote:
Posters response:
^This was too good not to share so I had to post it.

Regardless of how good the new CTS is, or any American car for that matter, they will almost NEVER get props where props are due, simply by virtue of being American cars. Add that in with politics and it will be damn near impossible for the vast majority to see the forest from the trees. Heck, the Brits call most of our products "rubbish" before even getting the chance to drive them.

Centurion

I object and say the opposite, the cars are the main problem. Just take a look at GM's product portfolio. It's a disaster, over saturated with too many products which totally confuses the consumers. Chevy for example have has 5 SUVs in the line up and most of which collides with the other SUVs in GMs product portfolio.

The entire GM needs to be reformed because now it's same sh*t, different toilet. Platform sharing is in the highest gear. Most cars look-a-like, have the same price tag and don't differ from one another in any significant way. They lack a dominant selling idea and don't make a statement when you look or sit inside them.

Quantity is high and quality is low. IMO GM is too big, too many similar manufacturers in the same portfolio led to complications and cannibalization. Almost all of GMs American brands have been compromised, aren't at their highest potential and the quality is dropping.
Just look at VAGs perfectly structured portfolio, barely any cannibalization. GM is a prime example of a capitalistically failure. Bigger isn't always better.

Bottom line is that in order for the American automotive industry to be saved GM needs to sell off half of their American brands. A major reformation and repositioning of their brands is needed. Until then the current view on American cars will remain. Once again the GM isn't listening to the consumers.

Sunny

You make it sound as if it is the costumer's fault if they are prejudiced against the American cars... no, Detroit has it self to blame for making crappy cars for a long time... they dug themselves into a hole, a couple of good cars, even if they are world class, is not going to change that perception. It will take a lot more consistency across the entire range for that. And it has nothing to do with the car being American. Look at Jaguar (or British cars in general), they were notorius for being unreliable, and though a modern Jaguar is not any worse than it's German competitors when it comes to reliability, it is not doing it any good.

I have heard this same line of argument from Bob Lutz too - that it's all media's fault, and I think, Detroit will do well to get out of this "we are a victim" argument (which btw sounds a lot like Bush's "it all media's fault for highlighting everything that is wrong with Iraq" argument).

Germaniac

This is also true of the Australian press, I think - they are always overly critical of aussie cars - almost like anti-bias is turning into bias. it contrasts strongly to the way the british media treat our cars (recent holdens/hsvs in particular) - comparing them with a straight face to the likes of bmw and jaguar (which personally i think is quite laughable).

The thing is though, aussie cars are a heck of a lot cheaper than european cars here, and generally cheaper than their japanese competitors. i assume it's the same in america with american cars, and that old cliche sticks - you get what you pay for. some american cars may be underrated, but they're still cheaper than their european competitors, and therefore i'm thinking it probably doesnt matter a great deal how the media treats them - some still wont be willing to cough up the extra cash for something less american.

Deutsch

We're not talking about the past we're talking about now. People need to get their heads off of the past and look at the present. It's obvious there have been problems, but no one has ever gone forward looking backwards.

Centurion

I was actually talking about the American cars today.

Sunny

Well, I beg to differ. Your reputation matters. If I was going to plunk 40 large ones on a car, I would like to know how reputable the company I am dealing with is.

And like Luwalira pointed out, even now, except for a few handful of exceptions, most of the American cars are sub par even now.

Merc1

I have been trying to stay out of this one because of all my years battling American car diehards on Edmunds. Oh well.

The title of the thread is only partially correct. The cars are no longer the biggest problem for Detroit. Trust, they are still a part of the problem at Ford and Chrysler, but not so much for GM anymore. Let me explain.

Those who say that reputation matters are correct also. I know so many people who won't even consider an American car. They all have and or want an Infiniti, Honda, Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, or Volvo. If I were to invite all my car-loving friends over you'd have a block full of foreign cars with maybe 2 American cars in the bunch. The reason for this is that GM, Ford and Chrysler built nothing but pure junk from at least the late 70's until just recently. That said certain American cars are still junk. Uh....the Saturn Ion. Garbage.

Anyway because of this 25+ years of clunkers most people won't even consider American cars anymore. For those of you that don't live in or are familiar with the U.S....the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord together sell about 800K units a year. Think about that. That is the once the volume that GM and Ford did easily for any 2 of their sellers put together. So reputation, perception, image, etc. etc. whatever you want to call it....is the other half of the problem.

I used to have this same argument with Mercedes-Benz detracters elsewhere, but from 1998 (the year of Mercedes' first un-Mercedes-like vehicle quality wise, the ML) to....fast foward to 2007 and you can see that the quality has turned around by the same measurements that said it was in the toilet. Ford, GM, and Chrysler took twice as long to even address their issues. For years they put their heads in the sand and denied quality problems, ignored trends, and just built more and more vehicles that either nobody wanted or were of a dying breed (traditional SUVs for example).

Another big problem for American car makers is that they don't stick to anything. They build a name up for a few years (take the Taurus) for example. It came out in 1986 and made a big splash in the otherwise boring as hell family market, yet by 2006 it was nothing more than a rental car. Then Ford turns around and drops the name and then re-labels the dull as hell 500 the new "Taurus". Then they wonder why sales haven't picked up.

GM has started to make the best vehicles I've ever seen them make, seriously. Sure they're still not the best in their segments, but they're more competitive than ever. The CTS, Arcadia, Sky Red Line, Aura, Corvette to name most of them are cars I admit to liking. If I wanted a non-luxury brand suv/crossover the Arcadia would get a look.

Chrysler, in brief could have been still part of the merger if they had followed up the 300/Magnum/Charger hits with a smaller car of equal success/stature, but they didn't. Th Sebring makes you realize that a different mindset was in place when the 300 group of cars were designed.

Anyway, that my take on this...in brief. I could go on and on about this in such detail to the point ridiculousness.

M

Deutsch

Everyone is entitled to their opinion....

I should state that when I created this thread I had GM in mind as an example of a credible and worthy American car maker. I believe that GM makes the best cars out of all the domestics by far, the money they've put into development really shines through in their latest products. Here is hoping they can keep the momentum going. Unfortunately I have the feeling I'm of a small minority that actually cares to look beyond the default, prevailing wisdom of the times and do my own research.

To the point, we know that the Americans took the easy way out and pumped cars for profits instead of dependability and quality, but that's changed quite a bit now. For once the officers of the domestic car makers are being accountable to the consumer in putting the money where it should have gone in the first place; the cars. Now, various Ford, GM and Chrysler products are being recognized as "reliable" and "dependable" vehicles, adjectives that previously were never associated with cars from those brands until now, and consumers are catching on and responding.

At the end of all this, and what many of you are arguing, are the legacy costs; the price the domestics pay for years of churning out low quality products and the negative perception has preceded them and has become the primary association. Sure on some level the domestics deserve this, but for Pete's sake, times have changed. Now the domestics are making cars that are just as good if not in some cases better than those from the foreign completion, and at a much lower cost to the consumer than those from abroad in some cases. But it's a domestic problem if Americans (and those abroad) can't find the value in otherwise well priced and technically competent products from the domestics simply because of what they "think" they know or heard from Joe Blow, whatever their hangup is. I'd wager to say that many would walk away impressed by the latest products from GM, Ford and Chrysler (as many have already) if they took the time to go for a test drive, and or did their research and cleared the muck of the past from their minds.

As far as the complaint that GM has too many platforms; VW is NO different, as are many other foreign car makers. Secondly, platforms just can't be cut for the hell of it, new initiatives to reduce complexity through the reduction of platforms take several years in order to make sense of the initial investment for tooling at plants as well as a host of other variable and fixed costs.

BarneyBoy

Detroit's biggest issue isn't the cars...it's themselves.

Over the years, the problem has been the Japanese, the Koreans, the Chinese, now it's the consumers? What'd THEY do wrong?

Own up, Detroit. Your biggest selling vehicles are based on technologies sometimes decades old. You've just not tried as hard as everyone else, relying heavily on patriotism to maintain market share.

Try LISTENING to the customers, don't BLAME them for buying what you've never been able to make. Trouble is, thousands of workers are going to pay the ultimate price for idiots being in charge of their workplace for too long.